Transcript Of Doorstop Interview By President Tharman Shanmugaratnam In Estonia, 26 June 2024

Question 1: Can you give an overall wrap-up of the key meetings of this trip to Italy and Estonia?

President Tharman Shanmugaratnam: I have had a productive trip - to Italy at the invitation of President Sergio Mattarella, and to Estonia at President Alan Karis' invitation. It affirmed the desire on the part of both these European countries and Singapore to stay closely engaged. They see value in partnering Singapore.

We are building up these relationships. Through digital partnerships, in tech and talent development, in cybersecurity and defence, and in arts and culture. It has always been a broad relationship with Italy. With Estonia, it's a newer relationship that only began about 30 years ago, but we see eye to eye on many issues.

I also met Finland’s President Alexander Stubb over breakfast while on transit in Helsinki.

Besides the bilateral relationships, there's another reason why these countries take an interest in Singapore, and why we take an interest in Europe, including the smaller European countries. We are all having to manage a world that is changing, a world where multilateralism is not as sturdy as it used to be, and where the international rule of law is being challenged.

We are like-minded in that both the Europeans and us believe in multilateralism, believe in finding ways to avoid it further deteriorating, and we also believe that we've got to stand up for the international rule of law.

In all my conversations with the leaders in these countries, this came through very strongly – the appreciation for the stance that Singapore has taken on the international rule of law. And in particular a very strong appreciation for the stance that Singapore has taken on Ukraine, which they are each deeply engaged on.

They also value our perspective on global issues, including how the world manages the transition to multipolarity in economic matters, and adjusts to the fact that China and the emerging world are coming up.

We have to stay engaged with Europe. Europe itself is changing. The configuration of power domestically within Europe is shifting and will continue to shift in ways that are not predictable. They are also tackling very important issues for Europe related to economic competitiveness, how they compete with China and the U.S. The debate they will have will determine whether they move further to complete their common market, towards a system where companies can develop the scale needed to compete globally, or whether they retain significant sovereignty for their member states. That's a very important issue that they are having to decide on.

But regardless of the shifts in the configuration of political power and the internal debate on the nature of the common market within Europe, Europe remains committed to multilateralism and the international rule of law, and sees value in the relationship with Singapore.

Likewise, we have to stay closely engaged with them. They play a role as a buffer in a changing world. They appreciate the need to diversify economic relationships, and to avoid us ending up in a decoupled world. They listen to our views, and they are themselves wanting to make sure that they do not fall into one superpower camp or another. They see it in their interests to remain closely engaged with all major regions of the world, including China.

In Estonia, I would say we also have a particular interest in the way their tech scene is developing. We have a strong digital partnership, which we hope to strengthen further.

We can learn some things from Estonia, another very small country. They admire us and we admire them. They have just 1.3 million people, but they have already had 10 unicorns. In fact, they have more unicorns per million people than any other country.

They do it by staying open to expertise and talent, but also, as the tech leaders were telling me this morning, they have made smallness an advantage because no company, no startup, thinks of itself as a local company, or sees its market as domestic. They look at the world for their market from the very start. They see the world as competition, but at home in Estonia, they cooperate.

The best known example is Skype, one of their early unicorns and an incredible success. Skype’s former employees have gone on to set up companies of their own, some 960 companies, and they're competing globally. But this large alumni of former Skype employees, technologists and business leaders, are still one stack within Estonia, constantly exchanging lessons, advising each other, and extending their own networks to each other. So they cooperate domestically in order to take on the world. That's a very useful model, one that's working very well for Estonia.

I think there's something about their entrepreneurial spirit and their ability to create world-beaters that is worth studying further and emulating.

Estonia also values education greatly. They admire Singapore for our education system, but they've got a very good education system as well. They're number one in Europe in the PISA tests. They believe that their strong emphasis on cultural education when kids are very young, and a strong emphasis on STEM as they get older, has been a good combination. There's no one model in education, but we learn from each other.

Finally, I was impressed by the group of Singaporeans I met. They were invited to the official banquet last night that the President hosted. They are an interesting group of individuals doing diverse things. A few of them working in cybersecurity - one was a professional hacker - testing company systems, another studying cybersecurity. Another working on financial crime detection. One was at a university for entrepreneurship. There was even one, Venus Lim, who had been working with Bolt, another unicorn, but decided after living here in Tallin for a few years to set up Estonia's first karaoke room, in an old theatre in the old town.

These are enterprising minds. There's a spirit of adventure that Singaporeans are developing. They are doing it on their own. They looked at opportunities in Northern Europe, wanting to try being in a different place, and found opportunities here. They are inspiring examples of how Singaporeans can break new ground, stretch themselves, and discover themselves.

It has been a productive visit. Italy, Estonia, and Finland value and want to grow the relationships with Singapore bilaterally, and also because they see us as a useful partner in a changing world. We are a small country, but by standing up for multilateralism and standing up for the international rule of law, they see much value in Singapore's role, and the way we coordinate amongst other small states to do the same.

Question 2: What are some takeaways for Singapore from this trip? And in what ways can Singapore learn from each of these nations?

President Tharman Shanmugaratnam: Take nations small and big in every region seriously, because the world is becoming more multipolar and in particular, we all need to diversify our economic relationships. So we should find areas in which we have common interests and can work together. That's true in Africa, it's certainly true in Europe, and obviously in Asia which we know the best, and in other regions.

Business leaders, government leaders, I myself in my role as President, we all have to spend time doing that- keep up the relationship with the leadership at different levels, meet the business community, and build Singapore's mindshare in each region of the world.

Question 3: You mentioned that we are similar to Estonia in terms of technology, especially in benefiting its citizens. What have you learned in that specific area? Is there any further collaboration or cooperation with our two countries in this area?

President Tharman Shanmugaratnam: In government, I know Minister Josephine Teo has been very active in visiting Tallinn for their annual Talent Digital Summit. We are looking forward to strengthening the relationship. We are both leaders of sorts in digital governance. I don't know who's ahead of whom, but both are doing a good job.

The thing about Estonia is that, like Singapore, they had to make bold decisions to distinguish themselves from others. They had to pivot when they left the Soviet Union. It wasn't just a moment of great political import - it was a moment of finding a new basis for survival and pivoting their whole economy and society, looking to Europe, developing new capabilities, and distinguishing themselves in the digital sphere.

They, like us, are open in their tech sector. Particularly for deep tech expertise, where about 80 percent of their talent comes from outside Estonia. Skype is a good example, founded by a Swede and a Dane with four Estonian software experts. It wasn't just Estonian. It was collaborative, but it's benefited Estonia greatly.

So, it's a combination of wanting to do something different from others and do it really well, aiming high and working very hard for it, while staying open to talent from elsewhere and doing things together. I was struck by the belief of their tech leaders that they never think they are building a business for the Estonian market. From the start, it’s always about building a business for the world, for markets outside, while collaborating within Estonia to support each other.